Ms Mridula Ramesh, CEO, Sundaram Climate Institute in conversation with Prof. Trilochan Sastry, Chairman, Association for Democratic Reforms
At ADR, we keep having discussions around the country to find out views from the people on ways to strengthen our democracy. We ask people the issues on which they are least likely to vote. Recently, after the results of the elections in four states have been declared, the Adani group stocks are hitting the upper circuit every day. Election result may affect the share market, if nothing else but does it have an impact on the society?
People like us live in a pretty good world. It doesn’t matter to us who wins or loses. But for the vast majority of people, their life actually changes in many ways. To give you an example, the Karnataka government promised free bus passes to women. Now, the number of women taking the free bus ride and going to temples has gone through the roof.
Each one of us will have a definition of what democracy is. Each one of us will have a view on whether it’s good or bad. We use a well-known phrase, ‘By the people, for the people and of the people,’ famously said by Abraham Lincoln. We use another statement that no office in the land is more important than that of being a citizen. Most of the people that we talk to feel that democracy is very good but they are not fully satisfied. They think that we can improve our democracy.
There are some problems in all democracies of the world, including our democracy. We are divisive. We are divided along regions, religions, languages and castes. We furiously fight each other in the public domain on various issues. Our political parties also play up to something or the other. Then, we have the money power and muscle power. Tamil Nadu is a leading light in the amount of money spent in elections, perhaps because it is one of the most prosperous states. A lot of money is distributed to the voters.
How can we improve our democracy? Will the politicians correct themselves? The Supreme Court cannot run a democracy. It can intervene here and there. The corporates are unable to do anything. The NGO and the media are there and they play their role. But 20 years ago, we strongly we felt that we—the people—have to do something, even if it is unsuccessful. With this background, we started ADR more than 20 years ago.
The latest report states that 44% of sitting MLAs have a criminal record. We did an analysis of 4001 MLAs around the country. I’m sorry to say that Tamil Nadu is not a shining example of probity either. It is just like any other state, maybe marginally better than some of the other states. 43% of sitting members of Parliament have a criminal record. I’m not making a sensational statement.
We went to the Supreme Court and argued that all of us have a right as citizens to know something about the people we are voting for. So, back in 2003, the Supreme Court declared that the voters have a constitutional right to know the background of candidates. The candidates, through a sworn affidavit, now file this information with the election commission. We download these from the election commission website, do some analysis and generate reports. That’s where our data comes from. Nobody has challenged them. The percentage of our elected representatives with criminal records has, in fact, doubled from 22% in 2004, when we first started this activity, to about 43% now.
We are proud to be Indians. We are proud that we are doing extremely well globally. But whenever a report comes from outside the country, which seems to criticize us, we become hypersensitive. The Global Integrity Report says that India struggles with promoting transparency and accountability and in the financing of political parties. According to the 2010 Corruption Perception Index published by Transparency International, political parties are perceived- not by foreigners—but by Indian citizens, as one of the most corrupt institutions.
Our reports are published in regional newspapers and magazines. We have filed 120 cases, of which we have won about 20 cases in the Supreme Court since 2002 or 2003. In one of the early judgements, the supreme court made five disclosures as mandatory. Past criminal convictions, the cases in which charges have been framed, assets, liabilities and educational background must be stated by every candidate, in every election. But the Election Commission does not publicize it. It is therefore left to us to bring out the press reports, based on the affidavits that the candidates give.
Electoral Bonds: World over, the election campaign financing has to be regulated and controlled to make democracy work better. In India, we don’t have a set of laws and we have moved backwards with the electoral bonds, which have made the funding opaque. We don’t know who is funding who and how much. The law allows you to do that under electoral bonds. We are fighting a case in the Supreme Court against these bonds. Our mission is to improve governance and strengthen democracy. There are four activities we do.
Election Watch: We have state chapters. In Tamil Nadu, our coordinator is a professor in IIT Madras and a top musician. We analyze the data and inform the voters through the non-English media. We found that people who speak English don’t vote and people who vote generally don’t speak English. So, we try to reach them mainly through the regional media.
Political Party Watch: In all leading democracies of the world, the accounts and finances and donations of political parties have to be mandatorily 100% transparent. In India, it’s not so. In fact, the electoral bonds scheme is a case which made it more opaque. We had to fight for several years and we finally got one judgment, which says that the Income Tax department shall release the information of the finances of political parties.
Based on this, we do our analysis and bring out reports. It is touching the tip of the iceberg. What the political parties declare is a few thousand crores. But what they spend and the money which is put in envelopes and slipped under the door would cross 5 or 10 times of what they declare. Tamil Nadu is a leading example, for the wrong reasons.
The political parties declare the audited statements but they use single entry, cash accrual and a cash-based system, not a double entry accrual system, which is the best practice. The political parties were not doing that. Once it came out, the election commission appointed Institute of Chartered Accountants of India (ICAI). They made a study and gave their recommendations to the election commission on what the political parties have to follow. Now the election commissioners enforce that the parties should at least follow good accounting practices.
Information dissemination is another thing that we do. The fourth thing that we do is advocacy.
The Role of Caste in India
India is the most diverse country in the world. Over 500 languages are spoken in India. We are very proud of our mother tongue. There are more than 3000 castes. We call it ‘jati.’ Even the educated people support people of their caste and identify with them. All modernism and sophistication get out of the window, the moment caste factor comes in. Every religion in the world is there in India. Of course, the major religion is Hinduism. The second largest population is Muslims and we have a large number of Christians. We have Jews and we have Parsees. So, we are very diverse.
Secondly, there is a huge churn happening in India, which many fail to notice. 45% of Indians are in internal migration. I believe in Kerala, they have bus signs in Hindi because so many Biharis are there. The migrants are flung far away from their traditional families. Most of them are from rural backgrounds. Their traditional family and societal norms are gone, as they migrate. They just float around doing some construction work, taxi driving or whatever work they can do.
Third, of course, is the advent of mobile phones. At one point, I read, that the most downloaded songs were in Bhojpuri, because Biharis are the maximum number migrants. They go all over the country. Through mobile phones, they get entertainment, good news, bad news, fake news and everything.
The world inequality report says that the inequality index in India is rising. There were rich and poor people always down the ages. But in those days, people didn’t know. Now through WhatsApp and mobile phones, they immediately know about the differences.
Change is happening very fast and people look for stability. One of the sources of stability is God and religion. The second is the political leader. People look for some political leader who will solve all their problems. Different political parties try their luck on how to entice people to vote for them. At ADR, we seek your views and advice on how we can together strengthen our democracy.
Ms Mridula Ramesh: In your survey, out of 20 governance priorities, people have chosen the encroachment of water bodies as the bottommost. So, if I were a politician, I’ll say that it’s not valued. So why should I care about it? In view of the Chennai floods, does this not assume great significance?
Dr Sastry: We have something called as smashana vairagya. This is deceptive, detachment which we get at the burial ground, when we attend a funeral. But this is short-lived. Similarly, after the floods, when people go back to their normal lives, they forget about it and get on with other important things.
Ms Mridula Ramesh: What are the things that business leaders should keep in their mind when they think about democracy and the direction in which it’s headed?
Dr Sastry: I’m not an unabashed admirer of the United States. But there are some good things and not so good things. In some ways, perhaps we are better than them. But I noticed some good things there. Donald Trump appointed a committee of industrial captains, some 20 of them to advise him. Of course, every president does that. But, in this case, within six months, one by one, they all resigned. They publicly said that they disagreed with the President on many of his statements and policies. That, I think, is democracy in action for the businessmen.
Here in India, either the top businessmen are silent. Or, they always say nice things about the people in power. This is the Indian mindset. The Americans, at least, are able to assert their individuality and independence while we are simply unable to do that. We don’t have to be heroes and fight against any government. But we can stick to certain principles, which are universally accepted, be honest, be truthful, do good business and make the business prosperous. We don’t have to necessarily align with any party that comes to power. This, I think, will help increase the tone of discussion in the society enormously.
I’m not blaming this government. It used to happen earlier also. For instance, when Manmohan Singh was the PM, I saw big posters that said Manmohan Singh should get a Nobel Prize. Secondly, you must treat your employees well. If you believe in democracy, it doesn’t mean that everybody is equal. But you must give equal opportunity and treat everybody with respect and dignity, whether he or she cleans the toilets or is the CEO. Good businessmen do that.
Ms Mridula Ramesh: One of the things that fascinates me is your book on Hinduism. Is there a connection between your organization and the book?
Dr Sastry: The motivation is spiritual in both the cases. I am inspired by Swami Vivekananda. Whatever we do must be for the good of the world.
Q&A
What is your thought on freebies? When the ruling party gives it, they call it welfare. When they’re in opposition, they accuse the other party of giving freebies.
Dr Sastry: Given the inequality in the society, world over, there is some kind of leg up given to the poor. Even America has welfare schemes. But if we are going too far and using it for political gains and competition is the question. Subash Chandra Bose said, “Give me your blood. I’ll give you freedom.” Today, our politicians say, “I will give you money. Give me votes.” We can give free education or free primary health services. But when it comes to giving free bus passes and so on, it becomes a problem.
How has your experience as Chairman of ADR shaped your perspective of India’s democracy?
I have great faith in the younger generation. They are the future and hope for democracy. They actively look for guidance, but the elders fail to provide the right guidance to young people around the country. We need to do that. In Puranas, we read that after the churn, the poison comes first and then comes the amrit (nectar). Our society is now going through the churn. Eventually, the nectar will come out.
How can the youth be encouraged to actively participate in the political process?
Dr Sastry: Firstly, they have to take interest and number two, they have to be well informed about various issues. It is not like supporting CSK just because you are Chennai lad. For instance, MS Dhoni is not from Chennai. Our support is for emotional reasons. This should not be the case in politics. Be well informed, learn about democracy and get engaged. Then, magic will happen.
How would you get the private sector, civil society and the government to work together?
Dr Sastry: We need leadership and that leadership has to come from civil society. The leadership must be willing to put some effort and stick their neck out a bit. Coordination between the corporate, the civil society and the government will not happen without a catalyst. That catalyst has to come from civil society. The civil society must engage more meaningfully with the government and the political system. It takes time to build trust. It requires persistence, leadership, gathering of support and using that support to lobby.
How can businesses and corporates play a positive role in supporting democratic reforms and good governance?
Dr Sastry: Politics and elections require money. Let us be honest about it. You can’t expect politicians and political parties to run on love and fresh air. They need money for campaigns. It’s a reality and we accept that. One big source of that money is the business. You should fund them. But you have to extract a pound of flesh, not for the personal benefit of your business, but for the benefit of society and good governance. Pitch your common demands for the good of the ecosystem and the society. Then things will improve.
As an academic and consultant, how do you balance your focus on corporate strategy with your commitment to societal issues?
Dr Sastry: In the Gita, we talk about yagna. There are many definitions. Some people give wealth, some give products, some give their yogas or tapas as their offering to God, with devotion. All of us are privileged and we are well off. By some miracle, God has given me two bits of intelligence and some abilities. I want to use my abilities for the good of society. That is my yagna. When the motivation is reasonably clear, your mind starts functioning better and you are able to balance multiple roles.
What advice do you have for aspiring leaders and activists looking to contribute to democratic reforms?
Dr Sastry: Think about how people will eventually remember you.
Don’t you think that asking people, who want to contest elections to declare their assets, violates their right to privacy?
Dr Sastry: This is an old debate. The Supreme Court and many countries around the world, have said that if you want to get into public life, then you have to be a little bit open. When Nandan Nilekani stood for elections, he declared his assets and nobody made a big song and dance about that. Because, he got his money in a legitimate and honest way.
Is RTI being abused?
Dr Sastry: Anything can be abused and so can be RTI. It doesn’t mean that RTI should go away. We must understand that the makers of our constitution declared article 19(1)(a), the freedom of expression as a fundamental right. The RTI Act is giving teeth to the fundamental right. In any democracy, we need transparency. All the money in the government comes from the people of India either through the income tax or corporate tax or whatever. So, people should have a right to know what is happening with that money. The questions that you ask under RTI really matter. For example, I cannot ask under RTI, ‘What is your wealth?’ But I can ask, ‘How much money was spent on an airport construction?’ It’s public money.
Can you share key challenges you’ve encountered in advocating for electoral reforms?
Dr Sastry: One is criminalisation of politics, which we’re fighting in the Supreme Court. If we go one step forward, we take two steps backward. The War of Independence was supposedly started in 1857, which the British call the Indian Mutiny. We got independence in 1947, after 90 years. With electoral reforms, we’ve just begun. We are not the only people. There are a lot of people working for reforms. Irrespective of challenges, we have to keep at it. At a personal level, we get harassed by the Income Tax department. Periodically, we get notices. But when I take a risk, I cannot expect that I should be 100% safe.
What gives you hope on the Indian democracy?
Dr Sastry: The people of India. The basics of India are very good. Our spirituality, value system and family structure are our strengths. There is something sacred in our soil. There are challenges but we will keep moving forward.
