Under the Read & Grow series, MMA organised a discussion on the theme of the book GRIT: Why Passion And Resilience Are The Secrets To Success authored by Angela Duckworth. Babu Krishnamoorthy, Chief Sherpa, Finsherpa Investments Pvt Ltd anchored the discussions with Kumar Narayanan, Chairman & MD, Yexis Electronics & Adomita Tech and Karthik VPB, CHRO, Azentio.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: The term ‘grit’ captured my imagination about five years ago, when I got a WhatsApp forward of a YouTube interview of cricketer Rahul Dravid. When he was asked the most admired person in his mind, he gave a surprising story of a person called Praveen Tambe, a cricketer with no exceptional cricket background or great talent. Because of his social background, he came into the cricket arena very late, at a time when most established cricketers would think of retiring.
According to Rahul Dravid, every morning, Praveen Tambe would stand at the gate of the stadium where Mumbai Indians practised in the nets. Once the frontline bowlers were tired, the coach would be looking at who else could bowl. That’s how Praveen Tambe got an opportunity to bowl. After many months of doing this and after many years of carrying cool drinks for the Mumbai Indian teams, finally he got a break closer to his 40 years of age to play for T20. Dravid says that the sheer perseverance of Praveen astonished him.
Then I happened to chance upon a TED talk by Angela Duckworth, the author of this book, ‘Grit.’ She is an academic, and has donned a variety of roles: a consultant, academic and psychologist. She has also been grappling with the question: if talent is the only indicator of success or is there something more to it? She says, “To succeed, it’s not just talent, but one needs a whole lot of things.”
Kumar Narayanan: Angela defines courage as slightly different from the traditional definitions of passion, compassion or interest. She defines grit as a combination of both passion and perseverance. She uses a scorecard called Grit scorecard that is derived from a questionnaire that has about 10 questions for passion and 10 questions for perseverance. For example, if you keep changing your interest every six months: say today, I want to reduce my weight and tomorrow, I want to build my muscles; then my grit score will be less. You must pursue a given interest for a longer period of at least 10 years. That’s the scale of perseverance needed. Passion reflects a higher purpose and value. The grit score is done on a scale of 1 to 5.
I spent 23 years in corporate world working for HP and IBM and I ran a sales organisation. Grit is a key element for a sales organisation. For the last 12 years, I have been an entrepreneur. I’ve tried to invest in 12 business units and I have tried to exit some of them. We must know when to quit. I measured myself and got 4.2 out of five as my grit score. If you score above 3.5, you are gritty. Grit is not just willpower. The closest word I would equate that is vairagya, in Sanskrit.
Karthik: I am in the profession of human resources. One important myth that got broken is, just looking for academic ranks and the name of the institution for hiring talent is not correct. When we go to hire, we always hire from tier one colleges. Luckily, some of our leaders were quite open for experiment and we hired freshers from tier two cities and tier two colleges. After one and a half years, we tracked their performance. We saw a greater level of engagement, continuity, performance on the work and higher retention. I was always blinded by talent. Talent without the ability to deploy it and talent without the skill is of no use. Effort becomes a multiplier and it is twice important. She defines: achieving = skill x effort and skill = talent x effort. Another important thing that I picked up was that enthusiasm is common; endurance is rare.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: One of the stories that was talked about in the book was about the Harvard University experiment on treadmill. They documented and tracked 60 people who took that test. People who gave up quite easily or at the first sign of difficulty, had reached a certain level in their career. But all those people who had endured the difficulty for longer duration on the treadmill test were very successful in their careers. If you develop grit even at a younger age, it can help you to traverse through life.
Inside Out and Outside In
Kumar Narayanan: Grit can come from inside out and outside in. The definition of inside out is self-driven. Outside-in is when you are taught by others, like mentors, bosses, peers and friends. For inside out, she prescribes a specific methodology called directed practice. It is repeating certain practice on a scientific and long-term basis with mentorship. The mentor gives you feedback on a real time basis and you do a closed loop mechanism to correct yourself.
It is true that people are born with certain talents like grit due to genetic factors, such as neural wiring, but Duckworth argues that grit can be developed through directed practice, which rewires the brain, much like neural networks. Most of her research focusses on athletes, soldiers, and students, particularly spelling bee participants and West Point cadets. She has done limited research on business professionals, despite the idea that entrepreneurs might display significant grit.
To be successful, both inside out or outside in methodologies are needed. You should not quit. You have to show up. Talent is not equal to success. That is her clear research.
Duckworth identifies grit as more important than talent for achieving success. Her studies suggest that people in their 50s and 60s tend to be grittier because they’ve faced more hardships over time. However, the earlier one learns to develop grit, the better. Learning to build grit at a younger age provides a significant advantage compared to developing it later in life.
The Four Point Framework
Babu Krishnamoorthy: The four-point framework for Inside-Out grit formation starts with finding your passion. Each of us has an innate passion. For example, imagine if A.R. Rahman had stayed a software engineer—he might not have excelled in that field. But by discovering his passion for music, he created timeless hits. As Kumar mentioned, finding your passion doesn’t automatically make you a genius. You still need to invest 10,000 hours or 10 years of deliberate practice in your chosen field to truly master it.
Next, it’s important to have a sense of purpose beyond yourself. Is your goal just about earning a pay cheque, or do you have a bigger vision? For instance, aiming to win the first Grammy or Oscar for India can be a powerful motivator. These broader aspirations drive individuals to develop greater grit. Finally, hope plays a key role. Do you nurture hope that you’ll achieve greater success in your chosen field? This is also essential to the process. Karthik, how has this four-point framework played out for you or anyone else you know?
Karthik: The four components or attributes that go into the inside out approach are: interest, practice, purpose and hope.
If we start with purpose, I’ll relate it to my own journey. I come from an agricultural background, growing up in a small village near Pondicherry, close to Cuddalore. My father was the first graduate in the family, and I was the first engineer. But did I know engineering was my true interest? No, I didn’t. For my parents, given how I was studying, they didn’t see many career options beyond becoming a doctor or an engineer. So I followed their guidance. I couldn’t become a doctor, so I became an engineer. It wasn’t really a choice I made at the time.
When I went into engineering, there were only a few branches available—mechanical, electrical, and civil. Computer science was just being introduced, but it was considered too new. Being a boy, I ended up in mechanical engineering. Choices were dictated by what we knew at the time, not by personal interest. It was only after entering the field and getting a job that I even learned about Human Resources as a profession, and that you could actually study it. It took me multiple attempts to get into one of the best institutes for HR, but I eventually did.
I thought I had found my passion in Human Resources, but later realised that whenever I returned to my village and worked on the farm, I felt very happy. This made me understand that discovering your passion isn’t a straightforward process. It’s iterative. You have to try different things. A good indicator is when you’re doing something you love, you don’t feel tired, and you always look forward to doing it again.
For example, in college, there were some subjects I didn’t want to attend, and I’d find excuses to skip classes. But there were other subjects I didn’t want to miss, like engineering design. I was so passionate about it that I even taught part-time at a couple of engineering colleges. But over time, I lost interest in that too. Just because you identify a passion doesn’t mean it will last forever. After finding your interest, the next step is practice. The more you practice, the better you become.
Angela Duckworth’s concept of “unconscious incompetence becomes conscious competence” resonates with me. As you keep practicing, it becomes second nature. When people look at someone who’s successful, they often think that person is naturally talented. But we rarely consider the effort and practice behind their success. Success is more about consistent, repetitive practice than just talent.
At age 40, I went through a coaching exercise where my coach told me I lacked connection to my roots. After school, I moved to a nearby town, and after engineering, I left Tamil Nadu. It took me 25 years to return to Chennai, and only two years ago, I reconnected with my village when my father became immobile. Out of necessity, I took over some responsibilities and found a renewed interest in my roots.
We started several initiatives in the village, like a de-addiction centre and a women’s self-help group. These efforts, though small, connected me to a purpose. I would drive from Bangalore to my village—a seven-hour drive—almost every weekend. I never felt tired because I was connected to a deeper purpose.
The final element in this journey is hope. I still hope to make a meaningful change in my village. I’m not aiming to change the world, but I want to make a difference in my small community of 600 families. As Gandhi said, “The change starts within yourself.” My interest, purpose, and hope keep me going without fatigue.
Looking back, my journey has been unpredictable. Where I started is vastly different from where I am now, and I don’t know where I’ll be in a few years. But for now, what keeps me moving is the interest I’ve discovered, the purpose that drives me, and the hope that I can make a change. That’s how I connect with this book’s ideas of inside-out grit.
Role of Parenting
Babu Krishnamoorthy: Is parenting an important component in developing grit in children?
Kumar Narayanan: It is a controversial question. If you ask people in their 60s, they’ll say, “Our generation was much grittier.” Just because their father got them one set of clothes only for Diwali, they think they’re grittier. You talk to people in their 50s, and they’ll say, “We were grittier than you.” Every generation tends to see the next as being less gritty. If I go to my dad, he’ll say, ” You haven’t gone through even a tenth of what I’ve been through.”
The point is, parents have a huge influence on their children’s courage. The first “outside-in” influence on grit is parenting. Angela Duckworth classifies parenting into four styles. One of them is authoritative parenting. This is when your parents say, “Just do it. Don’t question it.” Does this kind of parenting make children more successful?
Next, there’s permissive parenting, or what we might call “nice parents.” These parents let their children do whatever they want. One day, the child says, “I want to play football,” and the parent supports it. The next day, the child changes their mind, and the parent says, “You’re doing great!” Does this approach lead to success?
Through her research, Angela Duckworth talks about a third type: wise parenting. This is where parents teach their children about life’s hardships and boundaries, but with kindness and nurturing. It’s like being a military commander while also being a spiritual guide. Can you be both at once? That’s what wise parenting is. And according to research, children raised by wise parents are the most successful. So, parenting is critical to building grit, and grit is crucial for success. Wise parenting is a key factor in that.
Mentorship and Environment
The next influence is mentorship. Duckworth takes the case of the Seattle Seahawks football team and their coach, who led them to three NFL championships. How did he do it? He focussed on bringing out the best in each player. So how do you, as a boss or coach, bring out the best in your team? Whether in corporate or sports, this is crucial.
In my experience building sales teams at HP and IBM in Asia-Pacific, I saw this firsthand. Back then, we followed the ‘top school’ approach: hiring from the best schools, like Harvard or Stanford. HR would say, “We’re getting the brightest minds.” But when these candidates came to me for interviews, I would ask, “Can this person actually sell? Can they meet the numbers?” Often, I would reject candidates from top schools, even if HR was shocked. Why? Because success in sales isn’t just about intelligence—it’s about grit. Those with higher grit scores were more successful. As mentors or bosses, it’s our job to train and get the best out of people. Mentorship is another way to develop grit.
The third factor is surrounding yourself with gritty people. Look at your friends. Are they gritty? What about your colleagues? If you’re surrounded by people who are gritty, you’re more likely to succeed. It’s like the saying, “Eagles fly with eagles, tigers roam with tigers.” You won’t see a tiger hanging out with a cat.
You need a competitive, gritty environment to grow. The word ‘compete’ originally meant ‘to work together’ in Latin. It wasn’t about being better than others but about collaborating to reach a common goal. Today, competition is often seen as something negative, but true competition is about teamwork and achieving success together. That’s why having the right boss, team, and environment is so important for building grit.
The Role of Culture
The fourth and final factor is culture. This is a sensitive topic, but we have to be honest. Culture plays a role in grit. When I was promoted to Vice President at HP at the age of 36, we had a week of training where CEOs from different companies taught us leadership. One of the speakers was Jack Welch, the former CEO of GE. I asked him, “What are the traits of great leaders?” I expected him to talk about vision, strategy, or talent. But instead, the first thing he said was integrity. Without integrity, he said, a person couldn’t be a leader in his team. The second trait he mentioned was honesty. And the third was zeal, which we now call grit or passion. Finally, he emphasised hard work.
This was in 2002, long before Angela Duckworth wrote her book on grit in 2016. But even then, Jack Welch was talking about the same principles that are now recognised as crucial for success. These elements—parenting, mentorship, surrounding yourself with gritty people, and culture—are all part of how we develop grit from the outside in.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: Let’s now move on to some questions from the audience. According to Albert Einstein, success is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration. Does Einstein’s view of success match with Angela Duckworth’s perseverance?
Karthik: Yes. It’s not just about having an idea; if you’re not going to test it and stick with it, it won’t lead anywhere. Passion is often misunderstood. It’s not about saying, “Today I’m passionate about this, and tomorrow my passion changes.” If it changes so easily, then maybe it’s not really your passion or interest. True passion stays steady and keeps driving you forward. You keep going back to it, experimenting, doing it again and again—that’s what eventually gets you results.
Einstein achieved what he did in the same way. He didn’t just wake up one day and discover something groundbreaking. He spent thousands of hours working towards it. Angela’s ideas are exactly aligned with that.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: What roles does leadership play in developing a culture that encourages passion and resilience, particularly in the face of setbacks? How relevant is Peter Drucker’s statement, ‘culture eats strategy for breakfast?’
Kumar Narayanan: Leadership qualities are often shaped by experience, and from what I’ve observed in my 24 years in the corporate world, three key traits stand out. First, integrity is the most crucial trait. While Angela Duckworth emphasises grit as essential for leadership, I believe integrity is even more important. Second is grit itself—combining passion and hard work. Most successful leaders I’ve seen are incredibly dedicated, often working long hours. Finally, great leaders build strong teams. They replicate their qualities in their teams, fostering grit and teamwork at every level.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: What is the difference between persistence and stubbornness? How can you ensure that your team stays on the right side of the balance?
Karthik: The key difference is feedback. If you are stubborn, you become blind to multiple possibilities. You do not carry people along with you. Persistence is about exploring all the possibilities, looking at all options, taking feedback and taking people along with you.
Babu Krishnamoorthy: This question is on what sort of advice one should give to the young professionals for building passion and perseverance in the careers. Let me answer this.
Passion is about doing what you truly love and what makes you naturally happy. It can be something you’re born with, like Sachin Tendulkar’s love for cricket, or something you discover later in life. To succeed, you need passion for what you do.
A great analogy is that of a tree, which grows both above and below the ground. The visible growth represents achievements, while the roots, which grow in unseen and tough conditions, symbolise the hard work you put in when no one is watching. Passion is like those roots—it’s what drives you to keep going through difficulties, just like AR Rahman, who spent countless hours perfecting his music before creating a hit.
